Making a Case for Secondary Stats

There is a significant population of Holy Pally’s (and really skilled and well progressed ones at that) that believe Red Int gems are better than anything else, even if it means less overall stats.  I have “math” that shows that to be incorrect.  The counter to it is “real raid experience” which says Intellect provides consistency.  By this they mean larger up front heals.  No need for haste/mastery modifiers.  Thok was used as a way to say if you have more intellect you will have more smart heal and more shields or in the case of EF, larger EF ticks.  So.  Lets do math!

Would a Gem by any other name sound so sweet?

Would a Gem by any other name sound so sweet?

What I have shown here is how much more healing a LoD would do with 1 intellect gem or 1 mastery gem.  I also have shown how much healing 1 tick of EF will do (on 3 targets) with 1 intellect gem or 1 haste gem.

You can clearly see an output gain for 320 mastery > 160 intellect.  Counter argument is what if the shields aren’t used?  That is fair but over-heal on Thok is going to be low and when you compare over-heal on the direct heals vs. Illuminated Healing it isn’t close (20-70% compared to 3-15%).

EF is harder to make a case against conceptually even though the output numbers are so different.  Let me try.  A 320 Haste gem is about 0.9% more haste (buffed).  That is about 1% more healing in the same period of time, sort of.  Over the course of say 90 seconds we would get 43 EF ticks on 1 target, 129 on 3.  .09% more of that is 1.1 more EF ticks.  Those 1.1 ticks do far more healing than the small gain you get from the larger tick size with a Int gem (EF has poor SP scaling).  33k compared to 14k!

So, where is this consistency you speak of?

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12 Responses to Making a Case for Secondary Stats

  1. Talarian says:

    Boom! Headshot! With math.

    I don’t actually have anything to add to this beyond thank you for these posts. They’ve been quite useful.

  2. Goob says:

    I was curious when I saw your response in one of the threads at MMO. I too have been wondering about INT Gems and the whole Math aspect of them. My question is:

    The value of INT doesn’t rely solely in the increase of the HoT for EF. While the numbers support higher HPS for Haste WRT to EF Ticks, do you take into account the increased Initial Heal, Increased Mastery Shield, and then Increased HoT with INT?

    I’m not sure how the numbers play out in any regard, as I also understand Haste will also have greater impact on HPS beyond the HoT as well. I do however see some validity to an argument INT might play for providing consistency as a niche *between* Haste and Mastery. In 25’s I notice the need for both LoD and EF. The only stat which will give me the happy medium of increasing the EF HoT and LoDs is INT.

    Beyond that, I think the inability to reforge for INT has to be accounted for — at least for the sake of understanding why some might prefer INT gems when they are probably numerically inferior.

  3. Goob says:

    I hate to post twice, but:

    Another way of comparing Int vs. Mastery vs. Haste would be to math out the gains of each for EF, LoD, and then [EF + LoD]. So 160 INT would actually provide [1732 + 331] Bonus from your charts above.

    • bouchbagette says:

      My counter argument to the consistency was to look at a segment of the healing done where INT might shine. Then math it out. In terms of meta healing, I already did that. I have full rotational breakdowns that scale with each other to provide a clear number on what 1 point of every stat does. When considering everything Haste/Mastery is not 1/2 of int. The EF/LoD experiment was an attempt to find the point where Int does mathematically beats the 2nd stats. I think the best way to think of it is Int increases everything, but not a huge values at the item budget they have. Haste and Mastery have twice the item budget to move the meters.

  4. Joe Ego says:

    Where is the line on socket bonuses? Most common are 180, 120, and 60 Intellect when using a red/orange/purple gem, with the Legendary cloak providing a great example. Does that bonus make it worthwhile to use a Reckless for 140 Int and 160 Haste? With JC gems the question becomes 380 Int vs 480 Haste/Mastery.

    If I read your previous post correctly (assuming for haste you stop at the 45% break):
    160*.69 = 110.4 means Reckless over Brilliant or Quick.
    480*.69 = 331.2 means Brilliant over Quick for JCs.
    160*.76 = 121.6 means Artful over Brilliant or Fractured.
    480*.76 = 364.8 means Brilliant over Fractured for JCs.

    Does this look right?

    • bouchbagette says:

      Having a hard time following your math but I probably got it. Take the stat wt. multiply by the total stats of gem + bonus (if you get it) and compare the end values. whatever has the highest end value is your winner.

      60 int Socket Red Bonus = 60pts.
      Reckless: 190.4 = 250.4 total.
      Arful: 201.6 = 261.6 total.
      Brilliant: 160 = 220 total.
      Quick: 220.8 = 220.8 total.
      Fractured: 243.2 = 243.2 total.

      Artful is your winner for a red socket and 60 int bonus at 45% mastery.

      • Joe Ego says:

        I did something similar. Multiply the secondary stat value of the pure secondary gem by the stat weight and compare that to the sum of the Int + socket bonus. I only compare Brilliant JC gems because of your previous analysis of the 160 Int gems.

        My math still shows Artful coming out higher than Reckless, though personally I aim for a break point and try to avoid extra haste anyway.

  5. Thiron says:

    You’ve missed a zero in that haste spreadsheet.
    320 haste rating is 0.0087, not 0.087

    As for actual math, using haste as “more ticks” for EF is not the model you should use IMO. Cause that would only work for single-target EF coverage, not for multi-target blanketing. Total “per cast” EF healing remains same (ourside breakpoints), but more haste = faster holy power gain. End result is same though.

    Also, while haste is sure good for HPS, it “consumes” other beneficial stats to be so. I’m talking about Spirit, of course. How about calculating how much spirit you would need for that haste gem to remain mana-neutral?

    • bouchbagette says:

      I caught the typo and all the later numbers are correct. Just didn’t fix the missing 0 from the JPG.

      I used the hot component only of EF in the comparison because it was used as a counter example of how Int is better than secondary stats. But in the comparison I did the value of 3 EF’s rolling on targets. I could have included the added HP generation or the initial WoG heal but I was trying to stick with the initial argument of greater hot size.

      Haste costs more mana. It does. And if you go oom and miss on heals because of the added haste you loose output. But I also want to say even with a full Mastery build and 17k haste you cannot maintain a perfect HR/HR/HS/EF rotation for 8min. That will oom you too. But fights rarely require that rotation 100% of the time. So I guess my counter argument is haste doesn’t tank your mana and mastery means it is endless. Both can be tanked the question is do you have mana when you need it? Thus Spirit need is a mix of preference/execution/raid RNG. Hard to model.

      • Thiron says:

        Oh, that’s not what I was trying to say.
        I was trying to make a case for analyzing haste value – that you should not just look at pure “throughput”, but also slightly lower that value since you also need more spirit.

        Since I haven’t tried modeling it myself, here’s an example of what it could mean:
        320 haste means you consume mana 0.1% faster. To compensate for 0.1% faster mana consumption you need 55 spirit. It means you need 1 Spirit gem per 6 Haste gems, so actual haste value becomes 6/7th of previous value.

        Those numbers are random, of course. I’m just trying to illustrate that is should be taken into account somehow.

      • bouchbagette says:

        That would definitely work. Issue still being you need a fight you never break from the rotation or go OOM because you HAVE to heal, not because you are trying to pad meters. I don’t like playing the pad meter card but part of being an effective healer is making sure you have CD’s and mana when you need it. If a 320 Haste gem requires you to add 180 spirit then ya you can model that. But spirit need is so variable and in MANY fights you don’t OOM in which case the Haste you add has no spirit penalty.

  6. Aoire says:

    no point for gemming haste to get extra Eternal Flame ticks?

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